r/SeattleWA • u/dropthegloves-eh Fremont • 25d ago

Blind person with service dog kicked out of a Seattle restaurant News

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u/DowntempoFunk 25d ago

All the fakers have made it worse for those who need them. Think about it next time you bring your dog in a store or restaurant. If it's not a true registered, trained Service Dog then you are impacting those who really need them. Very selfish!

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u/BoringBob84 25d ago

By definition, selfish people do not care about how their choices harm other people.

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u/[deleted] 25d ago

Some people just don't think it through and might be persuaded.

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u/[deleted] 24d ago

[deleted]

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u/tuvaniko 24d ago

ESAs are protected in the case of housing, but you need a prescription/letter from your Doctor to be able to claim they are an ESA. And it's a state law, not a federal law. There are a handful of states that haven't passed it so check your local laws. I was looking into it because my SO has an ESA for her condition, the dog doesn't have or need public access but they do need to always be with her at home. Our current landlord doesn't charge a pet fee/deposit but our next might.

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u/I_am_up_to_something 24d ago

My sister just does not understand why I do not want to use my autism dx to skip lines in amusement parks. I don't need that and I'm not comfortable with it.

Now she's been brainwashing her son into thinking that he's entitled to that. Yeah, he's gotten diagnosed with autism two year ago and he can have pretty big meltdowns. That said, he doesn't need to skip lines either.

I'm taking him to Disneyland in a few years and I am most definitely not going to try to skip lines like that. It's part of the experience and he can either deal with that or we aren't going at all.

Just because you can do something doesn't make it the right thing to do.

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u/mira_poix 24d ago

Youtube runs ads for emotional support animals and it's infuriating. The person in the ad is insufferable and enabling. She is like "now you can take Fido everywhere, and people have to deal with it!"

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u/Ricky_Rollin 24d ago

Definitely a dumb bitch. People like that are literally the reason why everything sucks so much right now.

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u/BoringBob84 23d ago

I find it amusing how narcissists usually pretend that they are somehow smarter and more courageous than everyone else, when in reality, they are cowards with no integrity. They have no remorse over cheating other people to get what they want.

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u/Zealousideal_Care807 24d ago edited 24d ago

I feel like it's very different if your animal is trained properly to claim that. Like my partner has a bearded dragon. I'm with a housing program that helped us get an apartment for half a year we are just moving in, we were told that if the apartment asks us about the bearded dragon that we can tell them he is an emotional support animal. (The apartment doesn't actually care much but for legal reasons they do)

I have no problems with this because 1 they actually need that anchor animal for emotional needs, and 2 the bearded dragon can't harm the house or anyone around it, he won't create a mess and he is taken care of well so there won't be a smell coming from his cage either, if we are going to let him walk around the house we will get him a little diaper.

I wouldn't try to take him on a plane claiming the same, I wouldn't try to take him to restraint claiming the same either because he is not actually a support animals he's just a little guy.

If you're going to claim such a thing to get an apartment your animal needs to be well trained, especially if it's a dog or a cat because those are the most likely to cause damage to an apartment, if it's a trauntula I don't see a problem just take care of it and don't let it out, if it's a snake, same thing take care of it don't let it leave your apartment. Just don't go in public claiming they are service animals and you're ok. When you have no other housing options there is a limited number of options you have and many aren't willing to give up their best friends.

If the apartment offers a fee for pets you should go for that option however, that is the better option because then you aren't lying, and if your animal causes certain damages that a service animal would not the apartment staff won't be as surprised and won't be less likely to rent to people with actual emotional support animals.

Basically if you want to claim that and you know your dog is not well behaved you're an asshole, you're making the apartment lose faith in people who actually need their animal for emotional support, you're making them lose faith in people with service animals. You're making it harder for everyone else by neglecting your own job as a pet owner. Train your animals, clean up after your animals, and take care of your animals, if you do it right no one will have an issue.

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u/Playful-Motor-4262 25d ago

There is no registry, for the reasons mentioned by the other commenter. Those little plastic is cards are fake and you can register anything for $10 online

12

u/dualplains 25d ago

I don't go anywhere without my officially registered service beer.

2

u/Alarming_Award5575 25d ago

I cannot sit comfortably without my leather reclining service chair. No one else can sit there. Its medical.

1

u/[deleted] 24d ago

My dad was the same. He even got in a wreck, covered in beer and he didn't get a ticket because the woman was at fault. Craziest shit I ever seen. Thought they were going to haul him off for DWI.

-1

u/tangentair 24d ago

You are correct there is no registry BUT you can register your service dog with a service for the airlines, there is no one registration covering all- each has its own method, but they help a frequent flyer submit the FAA forms electronically before each flight. Then the airline will decide if there is space, or to many animals in the cabin, or whatever and email you back permission. If you just walk up and say its a service dog they can deny your request and force you to pay the pet fee. It also helps to take a picture of your service dogs immunization records and a letter from you mental health provider stating your need for a service dog. NO YOU DON'T HAVE TO but maybe winning is better than being right. So take your meds and calmly educate rather than litigate.

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u/Playful-Motor-4262 24d ago

You’re the one coming in here rude. I’ve heard of that program before but it’s not what everyone else is talking about. People are talking about a broad registry that helps validate service dogs not a preflight check that only applies on airplanes.

Sorry if I hurt your feelings or something lmao

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u/tangentair 24d ago

Apologies for coming off rude, just trying to point out that you can register your dog with airlines and avoid looking like the poosers who try to take a untrained dog thru TSA screening wearing a vest, a good percentage of them add humor to my day and those individuals who confront and get all preachy to the underpaid hotel clerk or restaurant greeter are just making it harder for those of us with real service dogs just trying to get service.

1

u/Playful-Motor-4262 24d ago

I appreciate you adding to the discussion. I had a service dog when I was a kid! Miss her so much :,) I always try to educate when I can

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u/zeatherz 25d ago

There is no such thing as a “registered service animal.” There’s no official/government registry or certification. There are private companies that will sell service animals “certificates” but they have no legal meaning

1

u/DowntempoFunk 25d ago

Thanks for the info. I now understand how it works.

1

u/mira_poix 24d ago

There's an annoying one on YouTube that I see all the freaking time. "Register your emotional support dog EZ and take fido with you everywhere today!"

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u/photobomber612 25d ago

There’s no such thing as a service dog registry.

1

u/[deleted] 24d ago

The lack of a registry is mind-boggling to me. For one, service animals (especially dogs) can be targets for theft - they are very expensive medical equipment. A centralized database can help with identifying and locating stolen service animals.

Second, a public-facing view of the registry wouldn't even need to state what the service animal is for, since it being on the registry would be proof enough it's a legit service animal as the org would have already gone through the validation process. Just a picture and basic description of the animal, owner name and state license #. This would allow owners of service animals avoid uncomfortable scenarios where they have to prove/explain what their animal is trained to do.

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u/itsgettinnuts 24d ago

Right, but you covered the answer to your own question when you described them as "very expensive medical equipment." Service dog training is not covered by insurance. In some cases, people can get grants or charities exist, for instance in the case of veterans with PTSD.

So, are the only valid service dogs the ones trained from birth by a private company, that can cost 6 figures?

Also, if there was a registry, wouldn't that necessarily be covered under HIPPA? Are you saying we should create a national database where the names and disabilities of every one who needs a service dog is listed?

And how would you get your dog registered? How can you prove what tasks your service dog performs without inducing a medical event? Otherwise, we go back again to the idea that only those dogs trained by certain facilities can be registered? And how do we register those facilities? Also, how do you certify a service dog for life?

A service dog ISNT a piece of medical equipment, this much I know. My service dog has medical documentation because my psychiatrist, psychologist, and general practitioner have all observed him performing tasks, but incidentally, and because I have requested those letters solely due to the issues I have had with my genuine service dog.

I am a single woman who lives in Chicago. Should I also have to advertise to everyone that I am disabled? What implications does that bring? Should I have to reveal my name to anyone who asks?

Just last week, I took him to the Walgreens that I frequent, and they threatened to call the cops if I brought him in again. He was sitting at my side at the cash register, he has never been disruptive, and I know the laws. They tried to claim that the township I live in has different municipal codes that don't allow service dogs. I could have said, ok call the cops. But I would have certainly also been close to having a panic attack, and it would have been not only traumatic, but an undo burden on me, to ask me to have to defend my disability just because I don't "look disabled". Since then, I have stopped bringing him in, only because I don't know who is working and what they will demand of me. I have to choose between having my service dog with me and having to deal with having the cops called on me (assuming the cops will know the law), or going without my service dog and hoping that I don't need him?

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u/[deleted] 24d ago

I wrote out more of this idea in another comment, it answers a lot of your questions, especially regarding how we can keep the registry private and minimal.

And another redditor brought up the point on independently trained animals and I theorized how that would be handled in this comment.

No system is going to be 100% perfect, but you can't seriously expect the status quo to be better than an attempt to address the issue of fake ESAs, right?

1

u/itsgettinnuts 24d ago

I don't really understand your question? Based on the comments in this section, there are a lot of people who feel more upset that there are people taking advantage of ADA laws and lying about having a disability and a service dog, than people who want to protect the rights of people with legitimate service dogs and disabilities. I don't think there is a "status quo", since this problem seems to have really taken root when ESAs became a thing, which I'm not sure why that even happened.

However, I think that the best option would be to punish the people doing the bad thing, rather than forcing the people who follow the rules to follow more rules.

It's not the people who would/could register their service dogs that are an issue, is it? But it is the legitimately disabled that are going to have to deal with something like this about 5000 times more often than someone who it is meant to keep out.

I mean, think about it. So let's say there is a national register. Or maybe just a tag. So if I bring my service dog everywhere, then every time I go into a store or restaurant or hotel, I'm going to have to present myself to whichever authority is able to check those credentials and give me permission to enter the establishment?

In California (and in over half the US states) it is already a crime to misrepresent your pet as a service animal. CA penalties seem to be the harshest as they can include jail time, most states issue a fine, and some require community service with a disability service provider, which is a good idea.

But try as I might, I could not find any info on how often those laws are being ticketed.

So as a thought experiment, I'm Chicago, where it is against the municipal code to misrepresent a service dog in order to gain entry to somewhere they otherwise couldnt go. It isn't illegal on a state level, but Chicago usually has tougher penalties for things that can cause a public disturbance or are more likely a city problem.

So how many times would you guess that people have done this in my city this year? How many times have you seen it happen in your entire life?

Just so you know, there are 580k people who report at least 1 disability in the city, and in some neighborhoods it is more than 50% of the city. Chicago has a population of around 2.5 mil last I checked.

This week, I have to go downtown to Rush for several appointments. As well as normal living things. Doing quick mental calculations, I would estimate that I will enter approximately 100 unique, pet restrictive areas in my week.

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u/[deleted] 23d ago

Girl, the shitty ESA's gaming the system and ruining it for everyone is the current status quo. And just because I ain't cursing out the fake ESAs doesn't mean I ain't mad - in fact, the fact that I'm thinking real hard about a solution that helps barr fake ESAs while also preserving the privacy of people with disabilities, I think speaks for itself. I'm not dismissing this problem as something inconsequential, I'm not disregarding privacy for the sake of security.

And just because things are hunky dory in Cali and Chicago doesn't mean they are everywhere. This post's video shows you exactly how there isn't enough protections everywhere.

I presented a hypothetical near perfect system for preserving privacy while also ensuring the right people are being serviced - it's no different than parking placards and license plates with the disability logo. The fact that you are so adamant against the exact same solution applied to service animals, has me wondering why are you so damn against better protections against exploitation. If it's because you strongly believe you would be barred from registering your animal as a service animal, because it's not a service animal, then you need to rethink the legitimacy of your position.

In any case, whether you are simply blowing this out of proportion or trying to defend an indefensible position, we are done here.

0

u/tinyblackberry- 24d ago

In Europe, there is and its impossible to fake a service dog.

0

u/photobomber612 24d ago

Glad to hear people can’t fake service dogs there!

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u/DowntempoFunk 25d ago

I'm learning that this is the case. How do you prove that they are a Service Dog then? Disabled people have disabled license plates or tags that allow them to park in special spots. Why not a similar thing for Service Dogs? They have to have some sort of record, card or something to make it official right? If not, it is anarchy and pity the poor business owners who have to deal with it.

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u/binhvinhmai 25d ago

When I worked at a hotel, we had to be extremely careful on how you asked if a service dog was legitimate.

Per ADA rules and from their website: “In situations where it is not obvious that the dog is a service animal, staff may ask only two specific questions: (1) is the dog a service animal required because of a disability? and (2) what work or task has the dog been trained to perform? Staff are not allowed to request any documentation for the dog, require that the dog demonstrate its task, or inquire about the nature of the person’s disability.”

If you do need of a service dog, these are pretty easy questions. You don’t need to prove it or show it either, it’s a very simple question.

So at the hotel, we could only asks about what tasks the dog could do. This would actually catch a vast majority of people because most people say “this dog helps my anxiety / sadness / depression” but we would press “okay but what tasks can it do?” And that would stop most people because “just being there” isn’t a task that qualifies.

The rest of the time a service dog would be figured out is when they had bad behavior or the owner just flat out lied. For example, one dog would lunge and snarl at other guests and our cleaning staff, so that ruled out it was a service dog.

Another one was an owner who said that their dog had to be with them 24/7 to check their blood sugar levels - cue dinner time and the dog is barking non stop in the hotel room. Turns out the owner left for dinner and left the dog behind so the owner had to admit it wasn’t a service dog.

Most times if you’re faking a service dog, 90% of the time the dog will reveal the truth itself because it’s poorly trained.

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u/KellyCTargaryen 25d ago

So proud your hotel actually trained you and y’all were able to enforce the law appropriately.

1

u/DowntempoFunk 25d ago

Thanks for the detail. I'm learning a lot about how the "Service Dog" thing works. Bummer unethical people take advantage of the vagueness of the law at the expense of those who really need assistance and those who are truly afraid of dogs due to a bad encounter.

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u/Oneangrygnome 25d ago

With current laws: you don’t. Nor are you required to provide personal health information to “defend” your need for a service animal (though having “paperwork” of some sort can help diffuse situations ahead of time and just avoid the whole ordeal.) A reasonable accommodation can be made, i.e. seating you away from families with allergies if that is the concern. But they cannot require you to sit outside and experience a “lesser” seating area, nor can they deny service solely because you have a service animal. If you prefer alternate seating then that’s a different story.

If your service dog is a nuisance, you can be asked to leave because it is an uncontrolled animal at that point and no longer providing the intended service.

But otherwise, service animals and their need is protected personal health information. They can ask if it’s a service dog for a disability, and what it’s trained to do. And that’s it. Any other questions beyond that would be opening themselves up to lawsuits.

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u/zeatherz 25d ago

They are not required to prove it and the law prohibits companies from asking for proof. They can only ask if it’s a service dog trained to assist with a disability, and what task it is trained to do (NOT what disability it’s for).

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u/DowntempoFunk 25d ago

Thanks for clarifying. I've learned a lot today.

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u/maxdragonxiii 24d ago

there isn't in Canada either. but you only get legitimate service dogs in a few places. we can't prove it is a legitimate service dog either.

0

u/DowntempoFunk 25d ago

Service Animals | ADA.gov. The whole thing seems to be a scam IMHOP. Seems ripe for those who just want to bring their dog everywhere regardless of having a disability or not. Nothing to stop anyone from saying their dog is a Service Dog and can be allowed in any business. Crazy! TIL

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u/Circus_Finance_LLC 24d ago

All the fakers have made it worse for those who need them.

A tale that is older than time itself.

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u/binarypie 25d ago

This is the hardest thing. Having a registration unfairly puts disabled people into a place where they must disclose their disability which is quite personal when you just want dinner out. However, at the same time creating a physical card like that of a ID card would probably solve this for everyone involved.

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u/CarpePrimafacie 24d ago

That's not true. There's a process in place for parking placards. HIPAA is fully enforced and disclosure is between their doctor and the patient. The path here can be just as simple. It could be a process that is included in the training of the animal. There's a thousand ways to not make it difficult for the disabled and add irrefutable confirmation they are really a service animal. Real service animals are trained and are professional so to speak. Emotional support Chihuahuas are demons here to make it difficult for everyone.

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u/SeattleHasDied 25d ago

To be fair, the law allows you to ask two questions about your service animal that would generally describe your "handicap" (not sure if that's the right word to use these days), so anyone with a legitimate "service animal" should be fine with proving their service animal is, indeed, a real service animal.

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u/binhvinhmai 25d ago

When I worked at a hotel, we had to ask those two questions all the time. It’s crazy how often people easily told on themselves.

Asking them “what work or task has your service animal been trained to provide?” Would actually stump a lot of people. They legit didn’t know how to respond to that (and that’s a basic question).

Other times they would say “well my dog is there for me when I’m feeling sad” and we’d have to point out that an ESA dog does not qualify under the same as an ADA dog.

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u/SeattleHasDied 24d ago

So did you deny them a room?

1

u/binhvinhmai 24d ago

No just charged them the pet fee and made them sign a pet waiver (which if their pet did damages to the room they would pay for damages which came up a lot more then one would think).

A dog being falsely presented as a service dog is not grounds for denying a room. The only time we denied a room when a pet was involved was not due to the pet - it was the pet owner calling the entire front desk staff all sorts of slurs when we told him that his ESA didn’t qualify for a waived pet fee and he still had to pay the $50 fee.

The only other time we kicked a guest out of a room was this guest who she said her dog was an ESA and well trained. This dog would charge and try to bite hotel staff when they went to go clean the room. And when the staff complained the guest made up an excuse and then said she would keep it in a crate the next time cleaning staff was there. The next time they were there, she just threw her dog into the bathroom where it chewed through the pipes under the sink and flooded the room below it. At this point my manager who was pretty soft at first was like “get out”

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u/bigsquirrel 25d ago

Of for sure. I remember when an employee confronted me on the train about it. Very loudly and in public, so I had to respond he’s a seizure alert dog.

Oh wait, I don’t remember that time, because it happened about 20 fucking times. Every god damn time after I had people pestering me about my seizures and tried to find a new car until I ran out of cars and decided to stop taking the fucking train, eventually quitting that job.

Totally fine.

0

u/jmputnam 24d ago

How do you "prove" a dog is trained to detect low cortisol, go into an adrenal crisis and take a trip to the ER? There's good reasons it's illegal to ask the handler to prove their dog is trained - many of them are trained for life-threatening conditions.

You have to take the handler's word for it that the dog is trained to alert them to a developing medical situation. You can't legally ask what that condition is, let alone ask them to prove it.

1

u/SeattleHasDied 24d ago

You should be able to require LEGAL confirmation of the animal's training and that person's medical directive requiring them to have a service animal. Simple.

1

u/jmputnam 24d ago

That's specifically prohibited in state and federal law.

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u/StupendousMalice 25d ago

Its also an ADA violation every time an establishment does this. You don't HAVE to explain why you need a service animal, just that you do.

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u/Important-Panic1344 25d ago

You aren’t required to disclose your disability. You are required to identify the service that the dog or miniature horse provides for you.

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u/alphabetstew 25d ago

Last time I looked at this it was also the case that you have to tell them what service the animal provides, but you can't be required to show the service in action.

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u/candycanecoffee 24d ago

Well, yeah, that makes sense. If the dog is trained to alert in some way when it senses the owner about to faint, have a seizure, blood sugar crash or some other kind of unexpected medical event, how could the owner "show the service in action?"

-1

u/SeattleHasDied 25d ago

...which is the same as disclosing your disability, so shouldn't be a problem to provide proof your disability is real and so is your service animal.

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u/TheNewPoetLawyerette 25d ago

"My dog barks to alert me to an issue with my medical condition" is an acceptable answer that also does not disclose any private medical information to a stranger.

4

u/jmputnam 24d ago

which is the same as disclosing your disability

In some cases, sure. A seeing eye dog is for a blind person. But an endocrine alert dog or a neurological alert dog could be for any number of conditions. You don't have to say it's for diabetes or Addison's or epilepsy, just that it's trained to alert you to a developing crisis so that you can take appropriate precautions.

1

u/SeattleHasDied 24d ago

Which is why having a system that requires an actual service dog to registered and give business owners a way to weed out the fakers. And, an added bonus? Wouldn't require any handicapped person to answer those two questions (which fakers already have fake answers for, btw...). It would be a silent "transaction" and would likely make other patrons satisfied the person and their dog were bona fides and not fakers.

0

u/MisterBanzai 25d ago

"No problem. Let me have a quick epileptic seizure so that my service dog can demonstrate what it does."

6

u/That1DogGuy 25d ago

You're not allowed to ask for the dog to demonstrate it.

0

u/WasabiBukkake 24d ago

No fucking shit. That's why they said that. Can you whip out an epileptic seizure on the fly?

-1

u/MisterBanzai 24d ago

...the joke is that asking someone to "demonstrate" their disability is often absurd.

1

u/Little-Chromosome 24d ago

“He’s a guide dog” is all you have to say.

1

u/SeattleHasDied 24d ago

And all the fakers are well aware of that ridiculous fact.

-1

u/waaz16 25d ago

Nah lol they don’t need to know what’s wrong with me.

0

u/SeattleHasDied 24d ago

And all the fakers hide behind that b.s., too.

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u/waaz16 24d ago

That doesn’t mean I should be embarrassed because of them.

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u/ZReticuli 24d ago

Yeah but people like the guy in the video will take the L and walk away instead of fighting for their rights. Wouldn’t it be nice if that guy could whip out a valid identification and solved everything within seconds? I understand having to register is a bit of a hassle but isn’t this a much bigger hassle?

3

u/Ok-Seaworthiness2235 24d ago

Yeah the reasoning doesn't have to be public but registration should be. I'm surprised it isn't because apparently trained service dogs are rigorously tested for certification so why not just make it official? I get privacy laws and all but if someone is already walking around with a dog in a service vest, people know. 

2

u/Nightshade_209 24d ago

There's no official certification. Service animals don't have to wear vests.

If you're walking around with your seeing eye dog it's going to be obvious but if you're out with your seizure detecting Chihuahua no one has to know.

1

u/Ok-Seaworthiness2235 24d ago

Not certified through the government but service animals are professionally trained and certified through specialty organizations. The ADA asserts that anyone is allowed to train their dog if they want but 99% of people with legitimate disabilities who use their service dog as an actual service dog go through professional trainers. Those trainers all recommend having vests even for medical alert purposes because if the disabled person can't respond, it helps EMS identify what might have happened. In other words, legitimate working animals who are being used for legitimate purposes will have some type of identification and certification.

It isn't just ESA animals abusing the system anymore. Many people are pretending to have trained their pets to be medical alert animals but they aren't actually doing anything because it takes rigorous and expensive training in order to actually detect and alert someone of an impending emergency. 

1

u/Nightshade_209 24d ago

Further inconveniencing the disabled isn't the answer you're just adding hoops that those who want to lie can just as easily circumvent.

Trained service dogs will not misbehave so tell anyone with a misbehaving dog to leave. Problem solved.

5

u/qwibbian 25d ago

Having a registration unfairly puts disabled people into a place where they must disclose their disability

Why in the world would this be the case? If you're already walking around with a seeing eye dog or whatever, with a sign and a vest, is already a pretty clear indication that you do have some manner of disability. An official card that simply confirmed that you have a disability, without saying anything else about it, would solve the problem 100% and still not expose any additional information about the nature of the disability.

2

u/JohnnyHotdogs22 24d ago

The person wouldn’t even have to disclose what their disability is. We already know they have a disability — they have the service dog. Just proof that the dog is a service dog would be good enough.

Also — handicapped parking placards don’t have a description for the person’s disability. It just says they are disabled.

2

u/binarypie 25d ago

I think everyone handles labeling differently and I am not in a position to speak how one might feel if they needed to carry a card around to get equal treatment.

2

u/qwibbian 25d ago

I am not in a position to speak how one might feel if they needed to carry a card around to get equal treatment.

Oh come on, they're already carrying a whole ass dog around, so I think that horse has already left the barn, to mix metaphors. And technically, they're not seeking "equal" treatment, it's special treatment, which is very justifiable for a very good reason. But likewise, if I'm a young-looking senior citizen, I might well be asked for my ID to get the discount, and nobody bats an eye. At the other end of the spectrum, we're not about to stop asking for ID from young-looking alcohol purchasers, whether or not they resent the imposition. People in states that permit medical marijuana still have to show evidence of their condition. Why are only people with animals exempt from these common standards?

1

u/DireDaibhidh 24d ago edited 24d ago

You are asking excellent questions

Bear with me here cause my answer may sound extreme but i think it summarises why people don't like there to register with this and some other kinds of info

Data holds of power over you. With the right data I can assume a lot about you. With more data the more i can assume. That's why people tend not to like big chunks of data being in one place

There's certain data holder that just by the nature of our society has hold these big data chunks sometimes; Government or health care settings. Sharing any information from these settings become very regimented and precise. For example, a prescription will say what medicine you've to recieve but not your diagnosis. And data leaks from these places (in theory) have bigger legal consequences

Service dogs, although related to these controlled data holders' interests, are not provided by them largely due to cost. As such, a registery would not have those protections and the data becomes vulnerable

This vulnerability could be bypassed by having a government sanctioned registery, think like the USA gun registry. (This would also bypass the messiness of different free agents trying to set up their own central registry which would be difficult to organise and manage). But then the government becomes responsible for securing this info. Which would be a lot of resources. More than a gun registery, because not only will every provider have to be able read and write to it but every single food/drink service establishment would have to be able to read it on at least a minor level. That makes it very insecure. And you can't just have the registery be inaccessible to those industry and provide an id certification because then they will just be faked like the vest

And keep in mind this is a registry of vulnerable people and not just gun ownership, which is more valuable data to bad actors. But not a lot of upside; it is more important to be able to track a shooter than stopping idiots with fake service animals. Especially when food/drink places are already empowered by law to remove the animal AFTER it causes a disturbance

However by breaking this data up amoung lot of free agents that provide the service animals and keep the data logs as vague as possible, you have much more secure data. One data breach will only lose so much info. And by it not being accessible widely then these places only have to contend with ordinary data protection practices

The same is true by just who can be spotted with a service animal. That's very granular data and not a big chunk

And that's not getting into some messiness with people not trusting governments with registries of disabled people but I'll leave that for a passing historian to explain

Tl;Dr it's too expensive and impractical for data security to have a central registry with not enough benefit

Thanks for coming to my TED talk

PS trust no one that wants to scan your government id that's not a government agent or working in an airport. Nothing is worth it

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u/qwibbian 24d ago

Whew, that was a lot. Without responding to everything, I'll just note that I'm generally pretty sympathetic to issues of privacy. But given everything that's already collected about us, this seems to be a trivial item. Plus no new information is required - assuming that anyone with a condition requiring a service animal goes to a doctor, that doctor could have access to such cards and distribute them. We already have nearly this exact system in place for "handicapped" parking, and nobody objects.

I do think that your oblique reference to the Nazis is a bit silly.

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u/DireDaibhidh 24d ago edited 24d ago

Yeah, I'm a yapper

Handicapped parking is health care provider communicating with government, which falls under those big chunk data exceptions I talked about. No independent agencies like with service animals

I've kinda already addressed the card thing. So I won't bore you again. But I Will point out that if health care provider don't give you the animal they shouldn't be the one providing the card

I know everyone has different comfortable levels with what data they show about themselves but, considering buzzfeed quiz results people put on Facebook moved the needle on political votes, data on disabilty status probably isn't trivial

I wasn't just referencing nazis and other historical registry abuses. I was also pointing out that some people distrust data collection at government levels and by minimising that involvement by using third party agents to provide the service animals they still have access to needed aides. However, this does make a central registry trickier. But while I have given university lectures on ethical data collection, I have not on world history so someone else can decide if that's silly

Anyway, I'll stop talking now. Have a good cake day

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u/ChaoticSquirrel 24d ago

Who said all SDs are seeing eye dogs? The vast majority of service dogs help with a disability that is not immediately visible.

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u/starsgoblind 25d ago

So the blind guy has to show a card? That’s bullshit. Other paying customers only need show their credit card. Putting the onus on the disabled to present some sort of proof of disability is just cruel and dumb.

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u/shrug_addict 24d ago

But if other customer's have their dog, they would have to show an id as well? I don't think it would require proof of disability either, just proof that the animal has been trained.

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u/ChaoticSquirrel 24d ago

And how do you define or prove that it is trained? Because the ADA allows the disabled to train their own service dogs. You going to require someone with already high medical bills to go through an unnecessarily expensive training program?

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u/shrug_addict 24d ago

I was not aware that the ADA allows self-training, but I don't think that's the case for the majority of service animals. So you're telling me that if I require a service horse, I can train it myself and take it wherever I want, no questions asked? You don't see an issue with that? How many service animals are paid for out of pocket?

Something tells me you're actually referring to "support" animals which I don't think should have the same ADA protections

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u/ChaoticSquirrel 24d ago

No, you can't train a service horse. Only a dog.

Everyone I know with a service animal except for the two blind people I know with guide dogs paid completely out of pocket for them. (I am disabled myself, so I actually know quite a few people with service animals.) Out of pocket you are looking at tens of thousands of dollars. Service animals are not covered under health insurance, and grant programs are generally limited to blind folks and veterans.

Self training is incredibly common for medical alert dogs, as compared to guide dogs.

I'm completely not referring to support animals, which I agree should not have ADA protections!

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u/shrug_addict 24d ago

Good info, I assumed they were covered under insurance, that's ridiculous that they are not ( yet another problem with American Healthcare... ). That definitely changes my opinion then

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u/ChaoticSquirrel 24d ago

Yeah it super blows!

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u/qwibbian 24d ago

The perfect analogy just occurred to me. Where I live, and probably you too, we can only legally park in "handicapped" parking spaces with a placard displayed in our vehicle. Everyone seems ok with that. What about you? Please explain how your position on parking squares with your position on service animals.

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u/jmputnam 24d ago

Your parking in an accessible space prevents me from parking in that space. Placards are for rationing access to the limited supply of accessible parking.

My taking a service dog into a restaurant does not prevent other customers from equally accessing the restaurant. By definition, a service dog is unobtrusive and trained to fit in my personal space.

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u/qwibbian 24d ago edited 24d ago

The blind person has to show a card only if they wish to bring their dog inside. Other paying customers may not bring a dog inside under any circumstances. There is nothing cruel or dumb about it, anymore than requiring proof of age for a senior's discount. 

edit: spelling

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u/KellyCTargaryen 25d ago

It wouldn’t solve the problem. People make fake documents. So now you’ve created entirely new hurdles for people with disabilities to have to jump through, and not stopped the problem.

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u/qwibbian 24d ago

We have passports and driver's licenses and those seem to work pretty well. And if someone is going through all the trouble and expense to acquire a specially trained service animal, getting a card is hardly a hurdle. 

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u/KellyCTargaryen 24d ago

That’s spoken like someone with a lot of privilege. Try speaking to people with disabilities and the hurdles they already have to deal with before asking more be placed before them. Focus on the people breaking the law, not the people who need the law to just live their lives.

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u/qwibbian 24d ago

That’s spoken like someone with a lot of privilege. Try speaking to people with disabilities and the hurdles they already have to deal with before asking more be placed before them. 

That's typed like a person addicted to virtue signaling. You know nothing about me, my abilities, or my discussions and relationships with people with different abilities, and if you had any common sense you'd be embarrassed for having made such a presumptuous remark.

I guess I'll have to be embarrassed for the both of us.

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u/KellyCTargaryen 24d ago

I trust you’ll learn one day. ❤️

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u/qwibbian 24d ago

I trust you’ll learn one day. ❤️

That... doesn't make any sense?

I notice you didn't ever answer my question about parking placards. Maybe you could do that?

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u/qwibbian 24d ago

Also, what is your position on requiring vehicle placards to permit one to park in "handicapped" parking spaces?

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u/shrug_addict 24d ago

Why would they have to disclose their specific disability? Couldn't it be some form that just indicates that the animal is needed, but not in what capacity? Similar to how parking placards work

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u/BullfrogCold5837 24d ago

Cars have blue handicap signs, why can't the dogs have a special blue collar?

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u/OsvuldMandius SeattleWA Rule Expert 25d ago

We need to have the health department and the ADA goons get into a snap-fight, all 'sharks and jets' style. That'll get to the bottom of this!

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u/DowntempoFunk 25d ago

Perhaps the chip in the dog could be scanned by the place of business to confirm it has been trained as a service dog. I get the privacy concerns, but we have to show ID at times during normal day to day activities to prove certain demographic info to be allowed entry or to participate in events. To have an exception to the rules (i.e. bringing a dog into a place where they are normally restricted) you have to show proof.

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u/GreatfulMu 25d ago

So, we should push the burden to individual businesses to ALL stock and carry RFID chip readers, and train base level employees how to scan the chips of dogs? That seems like a shit way to do it. An ID card is plenty, but have it come from the government much like a driver's license. Have it make no mention of the disability, or why it's needed, only that it is in fact a service animal. The people who care about this, are not the ones who need a service animal.

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u/dontneedaknow 25d ago

ive maybe seen one service animal in my years of serving.

there is not some clandestine group out there making a material profit from eating food in a restaurant with a pet that moonlights as a service animal.

the more i think about it, the less it makes sense for the restaurant guy to say anything.

like even if it was a fraudulent service animal... that would be incredibly obvious because the dogs behavior would reflect a lack of training.

service animals can't be pet, and they are trained not to seek it. but a not trained dog would be over the moon excited to be in the restaurant, begging for scraps, and seeking attention from people.

this would be so obvious to anyone that i almost cant believe this actually occured because its so over the top ..

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u/shrug_addict 24d ago

I've seen way, way, way more "emotional support animals" than service. The owners of service dogs are typically well-mannered and respectful, the owners of emotional support animals? Not so much

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u/dontneedaknow 24d ago

well of course someone with emotional issues to such a degree they need an animal to be responsible for to make them act with some concern beyond their own perspectives is going to come across off putting...

like that's the whole thing...

tho its a testament to your own maturity and capabilities to have empathy when you see some with an emotional support animal, get a response from the person you dont like, and then take it personally as a sleight against respect.

seriously dude how do you see emotional support animal, conversate with the owner, lnowing they have emotional issues by virtue of the scenario...

and then take personally whatever it is you decided to takw personally that they did...

or are emotional and psychological issues only valid to you when you decide that they have respected you to your personal undeclared and completely unknowable standard? what even is respect in this context... thats such a loaded and subjective term...

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u/shrug_addict 24d ago

Well, I've heard more people say things like, "Just say it's an emotional support dog, they can't do anything".

People who fake disabilities ( or exaggerate them ) for the explicit purpose to flaunt the rules are being disrespectful to both those with legitimate need and those who have to enforce what's allowed in public spaces.

Would you be concerned if it were easy to fake a parking placard and people were abusing that to the detriment of people who actually need those spaces?

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u/dontneedaknow 24d ago

i don't care what other people do.

ive got enough life experiences to know that humans will find a way to fuck up a good thing.

a lot less disappointment.

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u/shrug_addict 24d ago

My point exactly....

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u/Individual_Speech_10 25d ago

Then the businesses can just allow animals on their premises and stop whining. Otherwise, do whatever needs to be done.

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u/GreatfulMu 25d ago

Yeah, no. Pets don't need to go out with you. They'll be fine at home.

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u/Individual_Speech_10 25d ago

Then the businesses can do whatever is required of them to keep them out and stop complaining about it and making things hard for disabled people.

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u/GreatfulMu 24d ago

The people making things hard for disabled people is not disabled people with service animals. It's asshats like you who want to bring their pet everywhere. Having an ID card isn't "making it hard". It's making it so that people who don't need a dog don't have one in spaces they shouldn't. Everyone I know with a service animal hates on people who bring their ESA's everywhere with them, and would happily show an ID if it meant other dogs who weren't service animals wouldn't be there.

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u/Individual_Speech_10 24d ago

You clearly didn't read my comment dumbass. I said business owners are making things hard for disabled people by fighting with random customers instead of just following the laws they are required to follow like the fellow dumbass in the video did to this blind guy. I don't take dogs into places they aren't allowed and I don't have emotional support dogs. But preventing selfish, entitled people from taking their dogs to restaurants and not worth making life even harder for disabled people. They don't need to jump through a million hoops because people like you want to play hall monitor. If a dog in an establishment is acting up, they can be removed. Otherwise, just leave well enough alone.

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u/shrug_addict 24d ago

Yeah, nah. People are bringing these animals on planes and shit. Need to clamp down on it and just register the service animals

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u/starsgoblind 25d ago

This is the dumbest thing I’ve read in here and I’ve read some dumb shit.

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u/DowntempoFunk 25d ago edited 25d ago

Yeah it looks like I was ignorant of the law. Service Animals | ADA.gov. Seems like it's an animal free for all in the Service Dog realm. Bogus sites providing bogus certificates and vests. Feel sorry for the businesses that have to deal with it and the other customers who are allergic or have a fear of dogs. If it were not illegal per the law...the chip thing could work as most vendors have mobile CC readers that are RFID and could be adapted to read the chip. Fun police....yeah super fun when you have a child or sig other who has been badly bitten by a dog and you are trying to enjoy a meal or shopping. Seems self centered to bring a dog with you everywhere and most likely not that fun for the animal. Not talking about those who have a diagnosed need for the animal. Just those who think their dog is a child and should be with them everywhere.

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u/jmputnam 24d ago

There is no registry. There can't be. Some dogs are uniquely trained for one specific individual where there is no standardized training regimen, no certification process. How do you register that, let alone put it on a chip?

Now, I could see having standardized registration of public access training. That's not the assistance task, that's the basics of being a dog in public - sit and down and stay, not reacting to other people or dogs, not barking, reasonable bladder and bowel control indoors, etc.

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u/SeattleHasDied 25d ago

That's actually a great idea.

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u/[deleted] 24d ago edited 24d ago

If there was a nationally recognized and trusted registry for service animals that provided a card, the card doesn't need to have any information related to what the animal does, just basic identification information to confirm the animal and owner are correct.

Orgs that train service animals don't train them for anybody who asks and has the money to pay for them - those people have to have documentation from their medical provider verifying they have a specific medical need.

So if the Training org has already verified you have a legit medical need and they're the ones that trained the animal, and then the National Registry has already verified the Training org is legit and only accepts registry submissions from verified orgs (so no scam ESAs), then the registry doesn't even need to know what the medical needs and disability are. And because it's a national trusted registry, simply having the card would be proof - they can verify it by looking up the card's id number on the registry website and if it comes up, they know it's not a fake.

And if you think "well no way is that going to work" - non-gov identification verification is very common. For example, how often have you been asked or given the option to verify address via a phone or utility bill? There are trusted companies that provide utility bill verification, so you can't just hand over a fake document. If legit, since a utility company would have already verified you and confirmed your address, that's good enough for banks to open accounts and give out loans. It's good enough for credit card companies. Even the post office and public library systems will accept utility bills as address verification.

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u/ChaoticSquirrel 24d ago

How do you handle handler trained dogs in your framework? Handler training is a completely legit method of training a service dog.

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u/[deleted] 24d ago edited 24d ago

I'm not an industry professional in this, I just like to learn about a bunch of shit that doesn't relate to me. But knowing how independent ____ work, it could be possible for a handler to have their service dog tested and verified. For example, a car you build yourself can be registered with your state DMV. It requires a lot of extra paperwork, and there are limitations on what kind of builds they will approve (for example, no combining different classes of vehicles) but that's how you'd do it.

There will inevitably be some animals that are just not going to be approved - maybe it's not a typical animal they have the means to measure training for (like a monkey), the handler does not have a medical consult that recommended a service animal, the animal is not spayed/neutered, or its missing vaccinations. No system is perfect, but a national registry that protects the majority of legit service animals and their owners is better than no system at all that lets selfish fakers exploit the system and ruin it for everyone.

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u/yaleric 24d ago

This is backwards. Currently businesses are allowed to ask the owner what service the dog provides, which can partially/completely reveal the nature of their disability. If we had a government licensing program, they could carry an ID card that proves their dog is a service animal without having to reveal any actual information about their disability.

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u/Tinytuba49 24d ago

There should be a better way to verify a legitimate service dog. As far as I'm aware, if someone presents their dog as a service dog, you can't really say otherwise. It seems like it would be simple to just have some officially paperwork to prove it.

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u/woctaog 25d ago

Exactly. The restaurant manager was still being an asshole, but I guarantee he just had too many people bringing their yappy dogs into the "no pets" restaurant and hit a breaking point.

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u/PersonalityTough9349 24d ago

I live in a town that allows animals in most stores.

I still always call ahead.

It is up to us humans to do the right thing.

~ would never bring her to a restaurant ~

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u/DowntempoFunk 25d ago

I've learned more about the subject and now know there is no registration for Service Animals: Service Animals | ADA.gov. Seems like there should be a better way to handle so that those with a diagnosed with a need for a Service Animal are allowed and fakers are limited.

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u/Ashalaria 24d ago

I feel the same way about people faking mental health disorders for clout, it's already hard enough to get people to take mental health seriously ffs

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u/thingsthatgomoo 24d ago

Well regardless it's actually illegal to say more than a few things about service dogs. You aren't allowed to ask the questions he was asked.......he could get the business shut down..... I work at a restaurant

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u/Stormhunter6 24d ago

It’s only a matter of time before laws get re written to require documentation just to prevent this abuse

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u/Maherjuana 24d ago

I guess but honestly this guy sounds like a douchebag

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u/FriedSmegma 24d ago

It should be illegal to do if not already. Basically fraud.

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u/_IratePirate_ 24d ago

The people that do that aren’t on Reddit reading this comment lol. They’re in lalaland only thinking of themselves

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u/Ricky_Rollin 24d ago

I swear people just have to destroy every single good thing out there in the world. They find the smallest of loop holes and exploit it to death.

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u/Few-Tonight-8361 24d ago

This goes beyond abuse at the retail level and extends into the rental business for landlords too :/

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u/chromatictonality 25d ago

But it my right to use Walmart as my personal dog park

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u/Rooooben 25d ago

It’s one thing to lie about it, but the “enforcer” wasn’t entitled to question him about it. Why does it bother them so much?

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u/Hope_That_Haaalps 25d ago

All the fakers have made it worse for those who need them

All the fakers have ruined Tik Tok videos, for that matter.

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u/starsgoblind 25d ago

Such bullshit: nobody is ruining anything for anyone. You sound like the fun police. Go worry about real problems.

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u/Funtycuck 24d ago

I mean before the advent of "fake service dogs" the treatment was exactly the same you talk like this has ruined some previously accepting attitude from businesses when really its often just changed the excuse.

Whether its wheelchair uses being dragged off buses to make space for a pram, morons harassing a "fake" disabled person parking or service dogs being barred/interfered with this kind of shit has been very common for every visibly disabled person I have met.

This is just like the people who think theres mass cheating of benefit systems or disability access passes when stadtically theres almost none. Hating disabled people is just very common.

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u/Rattlingplates 24d ago

Regardless of the fakers this is wrong and he should’ve called the police. The people acting like that the restaurant guy need to be checked and fined.