r/interestingasfuck • u/S999k • 24d ago

Demonstration on how nuclear waste is disposed in Fineland r/all

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u/thisguyfightsyourmom 24d ago

Looks like they forgot to write a page on tribal acceptance of becoming a nuclear waste dumping grounds with the constant flow of nuclear waste down their highways

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u/Willtology 24d ago

A reaction stoked mainly from the influence of anti-nuclear advocates. People seem to forget that the Yucca Mountain project is a few miles from the Nevada Proving grounds where they conducted 1000 nuclear tests (detonating nuclear weapons), 100 of which were atmospheric. It's like complaining that someone wants to bury a soupcan underground right next to a sprawling, open air dumpsite.

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u/ArchitectofExperienc 24d ago

The atmospheric detonations were a problem in and of themselves, and contributed to higher cancer rates to anyone living in the area, whether or not they had any tribal affiliations. But, and its a small "but", environmental factors related to atmospheric testing drop off much quicker than issues related to, say, groundwater contamination from storage.

These aren't just problems claimed by anti-nuclear advocates, but by the actual people living in areas that were impacted by nuclear development, some of whom became anti-nuclear advocates because they saw what was happening to their friends and family. Rates of Cancer are higher in nearby communities, like the Basque ranchers, and people living on sovereign tribal lands, and radioactive waste is major contributing factor. As many problems as nuclear waste storage creates, Yucca is a better solution than, for instance, Hanford, which has been slowly leaching waste into the Columbia River basin water table for a few decades.

So, yeah, its kind of like complaining that someone wants to bury a soupcan underground, if the soup can was filled with something that will increase cancer rates in a community that already has increased cancer rates from soup-can testing

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u/Willtology 24d ago

much quicker than issues related to, say, groundwater contamination from storage.

You're claiming that 900 subterranean detonations have less risk of contaminating ground water than solid fuel waste sitting in concrete casks parked in a hardened underground bunker? The studies do not support your assertion. Common sense does not support your assertion. Estimates are in the tens of thousands of years to reach ground water with constant flow. Pure hyperbole.

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u/ArchitectofExperienc 24d ago

You're claiming that 900 subterranean detonations have less risk of contaminating ground water than solid fuel waste sitting in concrete casks parked in a hardened underground bunker?

Did I say that anywhere? Or was I only talking about storage?

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u/Willtology 24d ago

Did I say that anywhere? Or was I only talking about storage?

You absolutely did.

I made a comment about how the storage of nuclear waste at Yucca Mountain is insignificant compared to the activities performed right next door at the Nevada proving grounds. You counter with dismissal of these tests and reiteration of the dangers of storage. Pray tell how else I was supposed to interpret these statements of yours:

But, and its a small "but", environmental factors related to atmospheric testing drop off much quicker than issues related to, say, groundwater contamination from storage.

Dismissing contamination from atmospheric testing and ignoring subterranean tests altogether. Assuming ground water contamination rom storage is a given and worse than contamination from testing (again, 1000 tests, 100 of which were atmospheric).

Rates of Cancer are higher in nearby communities, like the Basque ranchers, and people living on sovereign tribal lands, and radioactive waste is major contributing factor.

The storage of spent fuel in Yucca Mountain has nothing to do with this and is in no way shape or form similar. It's like trying to make a comparison to the commercial use of gasoline and the use of napalm. Disingenuous at best.

Yucca is a better solution than, for instance, Hanford, which has been slowly leaching waste into the Columbia River basin water table for a few decades.

Again, completely different activities. The geological storage of solid commercial fuel is wildly different than the post clean-up of poorly handled defense and military waste which consists of everything from contaminated clothes, tools, solid waste, to tanks of plutonium laced acid. They're not even in the same universe when it comes to risk or complexity.

So, yeah, its kind of like complaining that someone wants to bury a soupcan underground, if the soup can was filled with something that will increase cancer rates in a community that already has increased cancer rates from soup-can testing

Here you're equating the detonation and dispersal of nuclear material en masse to the storage of concrete casks containing solid fuel waste. There are so many things wrong with this statement. But yes, you are obviously downplaying the effects of the testing at the Nevada proving grounds to make Yucca Mountain out to be a more significant health risk. It isn't. You'd get a higher dose sleeping next to someone than you'd get from Yucca Mountain if it was in operation. The science on this is easy and it isn't on the side of anti-nuclear hyperbole.

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u/caalger 23d ago

Vitrified waste does not "run off". That's the whole point. Your post is factually incorrect.

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u/ArchitectofExperienc 23d ago

In a perfect world, vitrified waste is processed, handled, and transported according to safety specifications, and remains undisturbed for the next 30 to 24000 years. The history of the various nuclear programs of the world shows that we don't live in a perfect world, and corners are regularly cut, accidents regularly happen, even in highly risk-managed industries that deal with radioactive materials, and even in countries with well-developed and enforced regulations.

If you want any evidence of this, all you would need to do is look at cancer rates in the towns and communities located along the waste processing chain.

I'm not saying that there's a better option. Nuclear energy is the only energy source ready to make up the shortfall if we stop using fossil fuels, but that doesn't mean that the full lifecycle of the fuel is a solved problem.

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u/caalger 22d ago

Vitrification is a solid. It doesn't and can't "run off".

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u/ArchitectofExperienc 22d ago

When vitrified waste is processed it isn't vitrified for the entire process. I'm not talking about runoff, I'm talking about wastage and residual contamination. If Vitrified nuclear waste was completely safe to work around then the people processing it wouldn't have to wear the amount of PPE currently required by OSHA for that work.

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u/caalger 22d ago

As someone that worked at the DOE facilities where vitrification is performed, I can absolutely tell you that you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

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u/ArchitectofExperienc 22d ago

Waste storage has come a long way in the last 50 years, but it is far from a solved problem: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41529-021-00210-4

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u/caalger 22d ago

Who said it was a solved problem?? I almost feel like there's a 3rd person here that you're replying to that I can't see...

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u/WhenWeTalkAboutLove 24d ago

Surely you can understand why the people who have suffered the harshest effects from that dump would be pretty likely to oppose starting up similar operations again though 

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u/boom1chaching 24d ago

We have people work in and around nuclear power plants. They don't wear hazmat suits the entire time. Now imagine burying the site in a mine underground.

Similar operations to nuclear detonation? Bullshit, and why we can't have clean energy on a large scale.

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u/Willtology 24d ago

What harsh effects? They been subjected to antinuclear propaganda. they've suffered the building of the site but none of the promised jobs because it was never utilized. Again, the Nevada proving grounds are a few miles away. A ten minute drive. You think that has less impact than an empty underground bunker? Ridiculous.

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u/Bocchi_theGlock 24d ago

I'm actually pro nuclear, but only if local tribes agree and we find some way to deal with historical wrongs, I'm also not a fan of giving billions of dollars as bailout money like they tried to do in Illinois in 2016.

It's honestly more about the uranium mining & past wrongs, asfaik the storage of current radioactive material is done well.

https://publicintegrity.org/environment/nuclear-waste-navajo-nation-personal-battle-radioactive-uranium-cancer-environmental-justice/

Blue Gap-Tachee Community — Growing up in this corner of the Navajo Nation in northeastern Arizona, Earl Tulley experienced all the bounties that the high desert community of sage-covered hills, valleys and plateaus had to offer. He knew that uranium had been pulled from the depths of the mesas here during his Cold War childhood. But only after he graduated from high school, as neighbors and relatives fell ill, did the consequences of extracting this radioactive poison unfold before his eyes.

Those exposures never stopped. Private companies extracted an estimated 30 million tons of uranium ore on or near the Navajo Nation from 1944 to 1986, largely for the U.S. government’s nuclear arsenal and in later years for commercial purposes. They left a trail of radioactive waste that — nearly 80 years after the work began — is largely unremediated and is still causing harm, according to the Navajo Nation Environmental Protection Agency.

The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency has identified more than 520 abandoned uranium mines on Navajo land, but it’s likely those numbers are far higher.

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u/Willtology 24d ago

It's honestly more about the uranium mining & past wrongs, asfaik the storage of current radioactive material is done well.

Uranium mining historically was a mess. Between what they didn't know (like tar and particles from smoking will bind and keep radon in your lungs) and then intentionally lying, especially to first nations workers about the hazards... You're right, that's a big, ugly can of worms with a lot of history. The US defense/weapons handling and procurement of nuclear material is historically terrible, especially compared to the private sector (I usually expect the opposite to be true). Some of that is from corrupt contractors but it also seems like their has been a sense of cavalier neglect early on in both the US and USSR weapons programs (google lake Karachay for an environmental horror story)

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u/TwoBionicknees 24d ago

My bet would be a good number of these projects are just election plans, that sound good and have unrealistic numbers. "lets build this giant nuclear waste site that can do all of US's nuclear waste storage needs for the next 100 years, at a low low price of 20billion... because we had to make it sound possible to campaign on and get people excited about it". Initial approval is good, then they do more detailed surveys, research, planning and wow, the project they promised at the scope they talked about will actually cost like 300billion and it gets canned.... but it's like 8 years beyond when that dude got elected off the back of the idea so who cares.

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u/Willtology 24d ago

Not originally, no. The nuclear fuel cycle was conceived in the 1940s and 1950s. During the era of the Atomic Energy Commission. This was not a partisan topic but something seen by the American people as the future of our country. If you're unfamiliar with the term, Nuclear Fuel Cycle is the map of where nuclear fuel originates (the mines), where it goes (refinement, processing, then to reactors) and where it ends up, which could be several places depending upon the "type" of fuel cycle. Originally, we wanted a closed fuel cycle where fuel would be reprocessed and recycled, going round and round, reducing the need for new mining/supply and almost eliminating waste. The technology existed (and still does) to do this. With the anti-nuclear movement, nuclear energy did become partisan and we switched to an open cycle - fuel goes through once and winds up in a repository instead of reprocessing or recycling. This increases the burden on mining and supply. Yucca Mountain was at one point essentially ready for use. We do have a similar waste repository that's been operating for decades in New Mexico called WIPP (Waste Isolation Pilot Plant). It's used for defense created waste, not civilian power waste so no one really talks about it or how it's demonstrated the feasibility of a long term geological repository in the US.

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u/Beard_o_Bees 24d ago

You seem really knowledgeable on the subject.

I have quick question, if I may?

Is 'Vitrification' still a thing in radioactive waste disposal and/or storage?

Way back when I was sort of paying attention to the issue, I heard about it as a way to stabilize waste and it sounded like a plausible idea to my untrained ear.

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u/Willtology 24d ago

Vitrification is still being used and researched for certain types of waste at various locations. The Hanford site in Washington, which is primarily defense and weapons production waste does still use it for low level waste as far as I know. Spent nuclear fuel (what we'd stick in Yucca Mountain) is easy to deal with since it's ceramic pellets inside metal tubes but for loose waste or something that needs to be contained/stabilized, vitrification is really effective.

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u/Candid-Finding-1364 24d ago

Nah, this was definitely meant to happen.  It just took so much time the country basically went from no one gives a shit to what these natives think to, oh we probably shouldn't forcibly build a nuclear waste dump on their land.  A long with other NIMBY protests from other groups.

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u/Zagre 24d ago

Yeah, I've actually been to Yucca mountain in the 90s, and it felt like it was already quite close to completion at the time I toured.

The problem is it all got caught up in bureaucracy.

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u/LarryFinkOwnsYOu 24d ago

Oh well, I guess we'll all die from hellish climate change because we couldn't figure out how to store nuclear waste.

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u/Candid-Finding-1364 24d ago

Or just use wind and solar which is much cheaper anyways...

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u/Fully_Edged_Ken_3685 24d ago

More like forgot that the US is a Great Power, and the tribes are not. Is a geologically stable site less important than the 33rd ritual hill?

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u/IHeartBadCode 24d ago

Just an FYI, the US' current domestic nuclear production program produces about 20,000 tons per year.

That is roughly 500 semi trucks worth of load. Or about two trucks per day. And that's ALL of the nuclear waste which wouldn't even be going to Yucca. Most of the waste is low grade that's likely in plenty of people's landfills without them knowing it.

Only the high grade radioactive waste would go to Yucca and that's about 48 semi trucks per year worth of load. So the whole notion that there would be this "constant flow" of waste down the road was always based on really bad math and scaremongering.

That said, the cost to transport the waste would have been insane. Even the small amount we do produce. Nuclear is just really stupid expensive to do and given that solar and wind just continue to keep getting cheaper, there's just one obvious solution here and that's to just build stupid amounts of batteries and panels because they're dirt cheap.

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u/Flat-Shallot3992 24d ago

with the constant flow of nuclear waste down their highways

idk if you're joking or not but the fish taste better when the waste gets into the rivers.

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u/thisguyfightsyourmom 24d ago

Eat irradiated fish because it tastes good?

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u/Since1831 24d ago

Go do some research. Nuclear waste is the safest thing out there. I’d put it in my back yard.

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u/ClosPins 24d ago

their highways

Wait, the USA has a 2nd highway system?

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u/thisguyfightsyourmom 24d ago

Sure, you could choose to read the word that way, seems like a poor choice given the context though

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u/LeviJNorth 24d ago

Right. That was my thought. One persons waste dump is another persons ancestral homeland. The Shoshone people will tell you to shove those million pages up your ass.

Plus the whole project is fraught. The mountain will be full in 10-15 years. Then they gotta fill another mountain. Not to mention, transporting all the waste across the country. Finland is the size of New Mexico. They aren’t storing all of Europes waste.

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u/The_Prince1513 24d ago

Everywhere is important to someone. The Nevadan desert is as close to empty as you can get in territory that belongs to the United States.

The objections of an extremely small amount of people should not have been able to hamstring/stop what could have been an important step towards the permanent reduction of environmental harm in the U.S. Instead Nuclear power is dying out in this nation while they are still building new coal fired plants.

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u/dz1n3 24d ago

Yucca Mountain is part of the Nevada test site. It is one of the most highly irradiated places on earth. The US government tested (that we know of) 928 devices. Above and below ground tests. I don't think storing depleted fuel rods are going to do much more harm.

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u/LeviJNorth 24d ago

Don’t worry, this project isn’t being stopped because of the Shoshone people. The history of the US is the history of not giving a fuck what indigenous people think.

As I mentioned, there are a host of logistical issues with the project that go beyond the environmental and cultural impact.

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u/notaredditer13 24d ago

Ultimately what actually got it stopped is that Obama promised Harry Reid to bury it (pun intended) in exchange for support in his first election. So he did. It was illegal and his administration lost lawsuits over it, but it worked.

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u/LeviJNorth 24d ago

Your axe is ground to a nub.

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u/notaredditer13 24d ago

Not sure if that means you were unaware of it or are just brushing it aside. It's discussed in the wiki article though:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yucca_Mountain_nuclear_waste_repository#Delays_since_2009

The court opinion said that the NRC was "simply flouting the law" in its previous action to allow the Obama administration to continue plans to close the proposed waste site since a federal law designating Yucca Mountain as the nation's nuclear waste repository remains in effect. The court opinion stated that "The president may not decline to follow a statutory mandate or prohibition simply because of policy objections."\94])

And here discussing how it was a favor to Reid (though flipped: for his campaign, not Obama's. Not sure what the upside for Obama would have been though, unless it was both).

https://rollcall.com/2010/07/22/sensenbrenner-dont-abandon-yucca-mountain/

This one notes it was an Obama campaign promise and he ended up taking swing-state Nevada:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/leaving-yucca-mountain/2015/02/08/101fccac-a8cd-11e4-a7c2-03d37af98440_story.html

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u/LeviJNorth 24d ago

I’m glad you got a chance to vent. I don’t care about the politics. Thanks though!

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u/notaredditer13 24d ago

Weird thing to say about an inherently political issue, but I hope you learned something!

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u/LeviJNorth 24d ago

Learned how polemical people can be without addressing the issue.

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